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Skype NDI Source Automatically Changing Size

Hello All,

Has anyone seen the issue when using NDI and Skype and the guest video size will automatically change during a broadcast?  I see a suggestion for OBS on the Skype website but nothing for Wirecast.  Any suggestions on how I can try and resolve this within Wirecast?

 

https://support.skype.com/en/faq/FA34853/what-is-skype-for-content-creators

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    • Greg Kuhnert
    • wirecast.community
    • Greg_Kuhnert
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Hi  Will Johnson

    I have seen the same thing happening to a colleague that uses Skype for his weekly broadcast. We have observed the same thing happening on a regular basis.

    The cause of the issue is unknown, however the workaround he uses is to build shots using templates - and to re-apply the template to fix any problems that happen during broadcast. Its not perfect, but its a workaround.

    GK

    Like
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Will Johnson So I do in fact know what this is. Skype uses automatic scaling for bandwidth considerations. The NDI implementation in BOTH OBS and Wirecast scale the video source based on their dimensions and as such will cause the increase and decrease in size. Wirecast is having issues with their current input scaling which I have a bug report in for and have been told they are looking at finding resolutions. OBS has the same issue however they have a transform editing feature that has scaling options available. I have had some luck with changing the scaling method there to use "scale to inner bounds" and ensuring that the height boxes below that are set correctly however it is an ongoing battle.

    Repeatable example:
    https://youtu.be/3V2WeMGu3TU

    Like 1
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    So Will, here are a couple more examples (using 12.1) of the scaling. The second video is showing OBS also has this issue though they have transform resources in order to assist for mitigating the issue. It does require you to edit each source of each scene to do so but even that isn't as good as what it "Could" be. Something I hope cane be assured if/when Telestream delivers on their mention of an intent to provide a solution to this issue.

    cc: CraigS Greg Kuhnert

    Like
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Will Johnson said:
    Has anyone seen the issue when using NDI and Skype and the guest video size will automatically change during a broadcast?

     Some users have reported this. Please do report it. I think the developers would like to see a screen recording of this occurring. 

    If a Skype shot is full screen and an issue impacts Skype's bandwidth, the source will resize but the shot would remain full screen (I've personally seen this). The shot's size may more obviously change though if using a Picture in Picture or scaled (less then full screen) source. The solution to this will take some extensive work.

    Wirecast Support Form

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    • Will Johnson
    • Designer
    • Will_Johnson.1
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    CraigS 

    It looks like this may have been resolved in the latest version.  I created a new project file, and not one time did the problem show itself. 

    Like
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 3 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Will Johnson We're making improvements of course.

    Like
  • I don't believe this has been resolved. I am still experiencing this issue and it is causing it to be unusable as a means to get remote presenters into Wirecast.

    Are there any updates to this? Is there a way to force the frame to stay static?

    As a side note - this change in resolution from Skype also forces a new ISO recording to start. I.E. every time the resolution changes a new file starts recording at that resolution.

    Like 2
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Mike Knight If you're seeing this in Wirecast 13.1 please fill out the form and note that it is still not fixed. Wirecast Support Form. We are working on fixing this but please understand the fix will involve some fundamental work which is taking some time.

    Like
  • Hi CraigS - I've submitted a form. Is there any workaround you can suggest?

    Thanks

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Mike Knight I find when the individual shots are full screen they don't resize even if bandwidth issue impacts the frame size. Of course, if your guests have good bandwidth the image won't resize. Skype resizes to accommodate decreases in bandwidth.

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    • Greg Kuhnert
    • wirecast.community
    • Greg_Kuhnert
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Mike Knight - The whole scaling / sizing / resolution engine inside Wirecast has been a problem for years. So many times, I add a camera and it is super low resolution, and zoomed at a high rate. Not very intuitive or friendly.

    This is even more prevalent with Skype that dynamically changes the input resolution. I know the symptoms are common on OBS and vMix, but these products have workaround solutions that can be applied.

    As far as a workaround in Wirecast, the closest I have found is to use custom templates, with your Skype source replacing one of the placeholders. When it resizes, you can reapply the template to get it back to a reasonable size. But the catch is, you keep having to do this again and again if Skype keeps adjusting the resolution.

    So for now, we'll keep waiting and hope the whole scaling thing is on the drawing board.

    GK

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  • I would also love for this to be resolved.  I can verify everything that people have said in this thread.  It doesn't happen if the sources are fullscreen, it hasn't been resolved, and OBS does have a way to nullify it.

    But... OBS is just so... ugly.  And Wirecast is so pretty!

    Using Skype's NDI function along with Wirecast is SO useful! Especially for guests that don't have the best bandwidth.

    Like 1
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    mason ross I wouldn't hold your breath. Telestream does less than quarterly updates on Wirecast and they have barely (yet have) acknowledged that this is an issue. There has been zero movement towards a correction to this and they have mentioned that the update for this would require an undertaking of restructuring how sources are handled internally.

    While I would LOVE to be proven wrong on the above, if you are currently using Skype for it's NDI out (due to the flexibility and reliability compared to Rendezvous), Wirecast's current state of how it handles source dimension changes will break any stream or recording you do. I too agree that OBS is ugly as sin, it's audio controls are abysmal, and if you're running on MacOS you cannot use studio mode... but at least you're able to work in a reliable templating tool that allows for variable internet speeds. Something that with the current societal circumstances is far more important when being relied upon to run events in a new economy.

    *cough* Lynn Elliott *cough*

    Like 1
  • I've switched entirely away from skype for this exact reason. Simply cannot 'hope' for good internet from contributors during a live stream. Rendezvous is out because you can't record ISOs and frankly I've had too many guests have issues with the web interface.

    I've switched to using Zoom - using 1 laptop per guest (pinned to second screen in zoom), outputting to a decimator each as a second 'monitor', then splitting this into 2 SDI's each - one goes into a recorder for a clean feed and one goes into my mac pro via a bmd decklink which I can use in Wirecast. The only downside here is that only have 1 audio mix from zoom not separate feeds per presenter.

    Not simple, not user friendly and certainly not cheap but at least it works and is reliable.

    Like
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Mike Knight Personally, I felt that the screen capturing and then subsequent mix-minus required for each connection, on-top of the GIANT "zoom" logo were a bit much for me. On top of that, I've had a few clients specifically state that they are not allowed to use Zoom until corporate approves it after all the security issues.

    Honestly though, I'm also looking at using and have been testing Gnuralnet's LiveToAir application. It provides up to 4 people with NDI out and works like all of us had hoped Rendezvous would have. Granted, it's a significant cost and the impact on the CPU means that it needs to be a stand-alone machine.

    Like 1
  • As I say I'm far from happy with it as a solution! Though for my purposes there's no need for a mix minus (the only audio we use is coming from zoom so we just let them communicate on zoom with no audio feedback). Also I'm not sure if you're thinking of an old version but there's no Zoom logo anywhere in the software, certainly not on the video. I've also had a few clients who don't trust Zoom and had to revert to skype for those. I'll look into LiveToAir as a potential solution or at least a backup, thanks for the tip.

    Like 1
  • Not sure if this also helps but I've been looking for Rendezvous alternates and found Medialooks Video Transport. I can't use it since it's PC only. But FYI. https://www.medialooks.com/video-transport

    Like 1
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Matthew Potter said:
    Honestly though, I'm also looking at using and have been testing Gnuralnet's LiveToAir application. It provides up to 4 people with NDI out and works like all of us had hoped Rendezvous would have. Granted, it's a significant cost and the impact on the CPU means that it needs to be a stand-alone machine.

     And it requires an NVIDIA GPU. 
    For a number of reasons you allude to it may not be something that would be built into Wirecast. 

    Rendezvous is undergoing improvements. More on the way.

    Like
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    CraigS I'm truly glad that it's getting the focus it desperately deserves. I wish that the original beta testers were listened to back when it was about to be launched though. Many of these flaws that users are bringing forward and are demonstrating are the things that we had brought up quite some time ago but had been told that it was not an actual issue and that we were the outliers. I understand that it was built in a hurry to compete with vMix social and there was a push by those in charge to launch it even with all its issues at the time. But even you have to remember that there was a collection of us that pushed for it to be better before the launch, yet were ignored.

    Regarding the nVidia GPU, yea. That has come up as an issue in my own system. Luckily have a couple machines that do have it. Also, it should be noted that they too are not ready for mainstream either IMO:
    - Not allowing the same input to be used in multiple locations (control room + studio)
    - NDI virtual camera not correctly working
    - Publicly showing all their current client email addresses on a site that doesn't even need to be logged into
    - Their contrived manner that they have their callinmanager working
    - The lack of ability to do both share screen and camera (limitation by the browser I believe)

    But the fact that they have:
    - the ability to mix-minus properly
    - have 1080p30 video
    - give access and manipulation resources for controlling remote camera, mix, and resolution to the control room software
    All things that we specifically asked for in the beta, are why I'm still considering it to be a better asset than the current state of rendezvous.

    To be fair, I am still looking for a good long term solution. Pfft, I've even looked into using something like https://obs.ninja and using browser sources. It too has 1080p30 video (remember when it was stated that it wasn't possible to do that with WebRTC?).

    Like
    • Will Johnson
    • Designer
    • Will_Johnson.1
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Matthew Potter After this last update to Wirecast Rendezvousis now my new best friend. I would normally use Skype when bringing guest on using in NDI and my CPU would spike around 87% consistently. After Rendezvou, My CPU never went above 50%, and that's with an After Effects project opened at the same time.  The audio and video with Rendezvousis 100x better than with Skype. Using Skyp I would get this Weird framing with the gas coming in via NDI. 

     

    Now I only use NDI for videos in Premier from another computer along with NDI Converter for web pages and pictures. 

    Like
    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Will Johnson Good to know! I do have plans to re-test it again but I need to track down multiple people to do a test with. I'm also going to need to rebuild my current production file in Wirecast. The current one is in OBS since it can be templated for all the various shots I need.

    Like
    • Greg Kuhnert
    • wirecast.community
    • Greg_Kuhnert
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Will Johnson said:
    After this last update to Wirecast Rendezvousis now my new best friend. I would normally use Skype when bringing guest on using in NDI and my CPU would spike around 87% consistently. After Rendezvou, My CPU never went above 50%, and that's with an After Effects project opened at the same time.  The audio and video with Rendezvousis 100x better than with Skype. Using Skyp I would get this Weird framing with the gas coming in via NDI

    I have mixed results. Yes, the video quality is better. But I am amused at your CPU comments. My CPU load is now regularly going red every week. The frustrating thing is that the Telestream team have asked me to send some diagnostic data.... but when I test this - it works fine... but during a live longer broadcast, it craps out (when I dont want to do the debug).

    I'll catch it one day!

    GK

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    • George E. Kennedy, Jr
    • Video Creator in the production and live event space. I Produce, Shoot, Edit, Engineer, and Stream.
    • gekjr
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Just experience this and it's absolutely insane. I have to now move my entire production to another app to try and pull off this event. Lower left of image

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    • Greg Kuhnert
    • wirecast.community
    • Greg_Kuhnert
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    George E. Kennedy, Jr said:
    Just experience this and it's absolutely insane. I have to now move my entire production to another app to try and pull off this event. Lower left of image

    I recognised the name Sandoz and googled them... I hope you found the issue before the event and were able to prevent any impact during the broadcast...

    Like 1
    • George E. Kennedy, Jr
    • Video Creator in the production and live event space. I Produce, Shoot, Edit, Engineer, and Stream.
    • gekjr
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Greg Kuhnert 😀 Event not until next week, but rehearsals part 1 was today with crew and client. All remotes were on WiFi low bandwidth. 
    I’m currently rebuilding the project in OBS to make use of scale filtering 

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