1

Choppy video

System info:

  • OS: MacOS Catalina (ver. 10.15.7).

  • Wirecast Version Name: Wirecast Pro 14.1.1.

  • Computer Model, CPU type, GPU model: Mac Pro (Late 2013), 2,7 GHz 12-core Intel Xeon E5, AMD FirePro D500 3GB.

  • Input sources of the video/audio and type of connection used including: Cameras: AIDA PTZ-NDI-X12 (1080p, 30 fps) and AIDA HD-NDI-200 (1080pm 30fps) connect through either NDI or Blackmagic design Ultrastudio Mini Recorder (driver version 11.6).

  • Wirecast Canvas size: 1080p (1920x1080).

  • Recording encoder settings: Default ProRes 1080p 16:9 (1920x1080) (30 fps) (ProRes 422).

  • Drive specs and connection type and percentage free space if recording: Apple SSD SMO256F Media, PCI. About 115 GB free of 250 GB total.

  • Wirecast Output Statistics:  CPU < 30%. 30 fps.

  • Monitor configuration and frame sizes

  • Relevant shot and Master Layer configuration 

The problem:

We are experiencing a stutter/choppiness/micro-freezes in the video both when recording and even when feeding the cameras through to external monitors without recording. The stutter comes and goes and is visible in both the preview and live windows in Wirecast. The stutter is there whether we connect the cameras through NDI or if we use HDMI/SDI outputs on the cameras and go via Blackmagic  Ultrastudio mini recorders. When we connect the cameras straight to a monitor (bypassing Wirecast entirely) the stutter is not there, same if we use other programs to view the HDMI/NDI feed directly.

We recently recorded for a client in Wirecast 14.0.4 and we are unsure if the problem existed there, because they were just talking into the cameras without lateral movement. Since we still had the install file for 14.0.4 on the computer we tried to reinstall that version to test. But after uninstalling 14.1.1 and reinstalling 14.0.4 we can’t get the NDI feed working at all. If we go back and reinstall 14.1.1 the NDI works straight away and the stutter remains.

This problem became very obvious now when we bought an Edelkrone motorized camera slider system. Gliding sideways smoothly ends up in choppy video with sudden small jumps in pre-view and live-view, like small freezes and jumps now and then. OBS doesn´t  show this behaviour. Video is smooth. But OBS lacks other functionality we need. 

For the next job it seems we have to hire a black magic system from a colleague to make it doable from 12:th mars. We have tried a lot of restarting, new and fresh projects, gone through all settings we can think of including the new clock source selector. 3 different mac computers and one PC. All with quite good specs. The problem remains. We could see other posts and video clips telling the same story even with older versions, so  in our opinion this is the most important problem to adress, prior to new functionality or anything else in Wirecast development.

Other than this, Wirecast is a very good system with lots of good functionality!

/Henrik

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  • There may be some "control" test you can perform.

    Confirm that your cameras have updated to the currently available firmware from the manufacturer.

    When going through the BMD Mini Recorder test by using BMD Media Express for recording instead of Wirecast. That confirms that input itself is good hard-wired.

    Then test with the same camera through the BMD Mini Recorder into Wirecast using a New Blank Document recording with the ProRes Preset.

    Please include a screenshot of the shots of System Device Properties.

    Also, include a screenshot of Wirecast Preferences Canvas as Video Display Rate must be set to 30fps.

    This test will confirm hard-wired input and recording.
    Keep the tests short as we may want these files to examine.

    After this, we'll test NDI.
     

    Like
  • There was a firmware update available for the camera and we have now updated to the latest version there.

    We tested the camera with BMD Media Express and also again in Wirecast and when using the BMD Mini Recorder the stutter doesn't appear anymore.

    The Video Display Rate in Wirecast preferences canvas was already set to 30fps.

    However when using NDI the stutter is still there but not when using another program to view the NDI feed. We tested using NewTek NDI Video Monitor.

    We are seemingly having an issue with NDI and Wirecast.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 9 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Thanks for those details.
      Are you saying that input from MiniRecorder is good in both Media Express and Wirecast?
      Can you provide a short recording from Wirecast showing the issue from NDI?

      Like
  • Yes, MiniRecorder is good in booth Media Express and Wirecast with SDI. (It´s a bit choppy but constant)
    I here provide ISO rec's from Wirecast, comparing the SDI and NDI sources.
    Jump to 20s and compare from there. This is the problem we talk about and it is appering randomly every now and then.
    The NDI source is set to "Use Source" in the new "Timestamps" option. "Generated" seems to be even worse. Bandwith: Highest. 

    Just got a new clue: When ISO-rec is set to "source" instead of "shot" we don´t see the choppiness on recording, but we see it in live-view. So the problem seems to be in the "shot" processing.
     

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 9 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Thank you. Good comparison.

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 9 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Started the investigation. Our internal reference WIRE-18524.

      Give the above it seems the cameras as using NDI HX specifically.
      Are the cameras capable of sending NDI (non HX)?
      If so can you test that as it may determine if it's specific to NDI HX?
      Do you happen to have the Newtek iOS app NDI HX Camera?
      If so testing that might determine if it's the NDI HX codec generally or specific to the AIDA cameras.

      Like
  • Thank you. I did an update in previous post probably after you read it 😕 So I paste it here as well:
    Just got a new clue: When ISO-rec is set to "source" instead of "shot" we don´t see the choppiness on recording, but we see it in live-view. So the problem seems to be in the "shot" processing.

    Like
  • Ok.

    Unfortunately, I can't find a setting for disabling HX2 in our AIDA cameras.

    I just tried the NDI HX Camera app, and even the Sienna NDI Cam app.
    In Sienna NDI Cam there's a setting for using NDI or NDI HX2.
    When HX2 is on, I think I can see the same kind of choppiness. I even experience that in the NewTec NDI HX Camera app.
    That can also be because of our poor wifi network. It's Hard to tell what is what unfortunately. We try to test further tomorrow. 
     

    Like
  • Henrik Marzelius said:
    In Sienna NDI Cam there's a setting for using NDI

     Is the Full NDI setting good?
    Just confirming the issue is specific to HDI HX2.

    NDI HX uses lower data rate than NDI so it should be less demanding on the wifi network although HX takes more resources to decode.

    Like
  • The Full NDI setting is slightly better, but I can´t really see  the BIG random choppiness in NDI HX2 from the iPhone apps. From the iPhone apps it is quite ok in both modes compared to the wired PTZ camera.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 9 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius We'd like to look at system diagnostics (we may see the timing issue there). 
      Send an AIDA camera into Wirecast NDI so that you can see the issue.
      Save the Document.
      Go to Wirecast > Help > Send Support Information and the Save Report and attach that report to this forum thread.

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 9 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius The System Report is most important but the developers would also like to know if toggling NDI GPU Decoding has an impact. The reason why is that specific model Mac does not offer GPU decoding through the OS.

       

      Like
    • CraigS We have tried with GPU Decoding on and off and it does not make a difference. Attaching the System report. The document in which we created the System report is called "NDITest" 

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 8 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Thanks for that. We'll analyze.

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 8 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Within the next week or two we should have a Beta you can try. In the meantime, if you can disable audio from the camera it may be a workaround. Looking at the diagnostics it seems Wirecast is reacting to the audio timing information resulting in dropped frames. 

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 6 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius Have you tested using the released Wirecast 14.2?
      If so please do report how tested and what your results were.

      Like
    • CraigS We have tried Wirecast 14.2 and the issue remains. We have connected one of our cameras with both NDI and HDMI/SDI (through a Black Magic MiniRecorder).

      When using HDMI/SDI it works but the choppiness comes and goes when using NDI.

      We have also tried disabling the audio from the camera but to no avail.

      Like
  • Henrik Marzelius said:
    t I can´t really see  the BIG random choppiness in NDI HX2 from the iPhone apps

     To be clear the phone NDI HX2 look better than the wired camera NDI?

    The problem is we can't evaluate terms like "slightly better" and "quite OK"
    We need to quantify the differences.
    NDI HX is a standard so coming from phone or camera shouldn't make much difference.
    Full NDI is a different codec and requires much less decompression but uses higher data rates.

    Can you provide samples of each so we can compare otherwise we may make wrong assumptions about the cause and the fix.

    Like
  • Henrik Marzelius said:
    Ultrastudio Mini Recorder (driver version 11.6).

    The latest BMD driver for your macOS is 12.0 and Wirecast 14.2 usually performs best with that driver although that wouldn't impact NDI of course.

    Can you provide an example of what you are seeing using NDI HX or NDI (please confirm which version of NDI you are using)? Please do this by making a local recording in Wirecast 14.2.

    Keep in mind NDI may be subject to network bandwidth and related issues.

    Please also test using NewTek NDI Video Monitor as that will show what the computer sees independent of Wirecast.

    I can test on my system as I have a 2013 Mac Pro, macOS Catalina Wirecast 14.2 and Newtek's NDI  HX and Siena NDI Camera apps.
     

    Like
  • I am also seeing issues with NDI|HX ingest on on an M1 imac with MacOS 11.6 and Wirecast 14.3.1

    Our cameras in this instance are PTZoptics 30x NDI|HX, so I can't test full NDI with them.  

    When I get on another computer on the network and run NDI Video monitor the difference between the camera's direct NDIHX feed and Wirecasts NDI output is drastic.  The direct camera feed is fluid and smooth, while the NDI output of wirecast is stuttery and jerky.  A local record and also has the stuttery issue. It's almost like continual dropped frames, and then once every couple of seconds a short freeze.

    Do encoder settings affect NDI output at all?

    Like
  • Billy Davidson said:
    When I get on another computer on the network and run NDI Video monitor the difference between the camera's direct NDIHX feed and Wirecasts NDI output is drastic.

     What does NDI Video Monitor look like on the Wirecast computer?
    Also try changing the GPU encoding on the NDI shot and reconnecting and see if that makes a difference.

    Output encoding shouldn't make a difference if that is what you mean.

    Like
  • NDI Video monitor of the camera feed is perfect on the wirecast computer.  I didn't look at Wirecast's NDI output on its own computer, I'll do that next time I'm in the building.

    I've tried both modes of GPU encoding with no noticeable difference.

    I just watched Henrik's videos from upthread and his NDI Test source sample is exactly what I'm trying to describe. Did he ever get a resolution?

    Like
  • Nope, unfortunately not. We had to go back to using HDMI and SDI instead.

    We would love to find a solution so we can do one cable instead of 2 to every camera and also use a higher frame rate. Our Black magic boxes are limited to 30fps@1080p.

    We recently updated firmware to latest august 25 version of our AIDA NDI HX2 cameras. That actually made the choppiness more even instead of randomly going more or less choppy. Maybe it´s something in the new NDI 5 that make it more stable. Still HDMI/SDI is smooth. NDI in Wirecast is not, except for iso-rec in "source" mode, as described earlier in this thread. 

    Six months ago it seemed like the support team(CraigS) was on something when writing:

    "Within the next week or two we should have a Beta you can try. In the meantime, if you can disable audio from the camera it may be a workaround. Looking at the diagnostics it seems Wirecast is reacting to the audio timing information resulting in dropped frames."

    We still have audio disabled in the cameras, but it never helped.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius still analyzing the issue.
      Wirecast Timestamps on NDI input sources should but might not fix it because there are other parts of the issue which is why this is taking some time. Did you try using Wirecast Timestamps and see if it at least improved the issue?

      Like
  • Billy Davidson said:
    I didn't look at Wirecast's NDI output on its own computer, I'll do that next time I'm in the building.

     That would be interesting since it eliminates the network's impact. 

     

    Billy Davidson said:
    I've tried both modes of GPU encoding with no noticeable difference.

     Thanks for testing and confirming.

    Like
  • Billy Davidson said:
    The direct camera feed is fluid and smooth, while the NDI output of wirecast is stuttery and jerky. 

     Just to confirm NDI Input is good but NDI output is the problem?

    Henrik Marzelius  is that the same for you? 
    Trying to confirm NDI input is now good but NDI output is still an issue.

    Like
  • Tested NDI Video Monitor on the Wirecast machine, same issue as everywhere else.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson Thanks for confirming.

      Like
  • Yes, NDI input is perfectly fine and has been all the time.

    To quote myself In this thread from mar 3, 2021, 6:48:

    " -When ISO-rec is set to "source" instead of "shot" we don´t see the choppiness on recording, but we see it in live-view. So the problem seems to be in the "shot" processing."

    Thanks for your commitment in trying to solve this issue😊

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 2 mths ago
      • Reported - view

      Henrik Marzelius thanks for confirming.

      Like
  • Any progress on this?  I'm starting to be pressured for a fix or an alternate streaming solution.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson It's still be analyzed. We are working on fixes on Wirecast NDI Out.

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson 
      The developers need to clearly understand whether this is an NDI input or output issue since you have stated:
       

      Billy Davidson said:
      I am also seeing issues with NDI|HX ingest on on an M1 imac with MacOS 11.6 and Wirecast 14.3.1

       This implies NDI In

      Billy Davidson said:
      The direct camera feed is fluid and smooth, while the NDI output of wirecast is stuttery and jerky

       This implies NDI Out. The issue is "direct camera feed" is ambiguous as it's not clear what it is directly feeding.

      So it's not clear what your current state is. Each requires very different testing to verify.

      ONLY if this is an NDI Input issue otherwise IGNORE

      I recommend testing with NDI Scan Converter on another computer capturing a video playing (can be a video on YouTube in a browser). And checking only that NDI input in Wirecast running on a separate computer. Also, check NDI Monitor on the Wirecast computer. This eliminates the cameras and only examines NDI input itself in Wirecast as well as any possible network conditions. This should work smoothly. 

       

      • NDI Scan Converter capture YouTube Video on computer 1
      • Wirecast 14.3.3 New Document on computer 2 inputting from Scan Converter from computer 1
      • NDI Video Monitor on computer 2 (Wirecast computer) capturing Scan Converter from computer 1
      • Call up Scan Converter shot and display it in Wirecast Live Area (Preview may not be accurate)
         
      • How does Wirecast Live Area compare to NDI Video Monitor?


      Sorry if the tests are redundant but the developers must be able to do matching tests on their systems to resolve this. 
       

      If you are having an NDI Out that would seem to be a different issue than the original topic on this thread and this may create confusion.

      Like
  • CraigS said:
     This implies NDI Out. The issue is "direct camera feed" is ambiguous as it's not clear what it is directly feeding.

    The Direct NDI-HX camera feed in NDI Studio Monitor is fine.  The only feed I have from the camera is NDI-HX, these cameras do not support full NDI, and I do not have any SDI or HDMI cabling in place at this venue.   Anywhere that wirecast displays that NDI-HX camera feed (Live window, NDI output, any encoder) has the stuttery/jerky artifacts.  Videos played through wirecast are fine at all points.  Video captured with a Blackmagic Micro recorder 3g is fine.  I have used scan converter on this system in the past, but not recently.  It was capturing zoom video which isn't the greatest to begin with, but I didn't notice the same issue.  It seems specific to NDI-HX

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson Thanks for that description. I'll let the developers know ASAP!

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson Developers suspect it may be related to audio out from the cameras. Can you disable camera audio out and see if there's an improvement? This didn't help for Henrik but there's some potential variation to the issue.

      Like
  • I believe audio out is disabled.  There is no audio source on the camera.  I can double check next time I'm in the space.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson Do check as we've found a potential circumstance where NDI Video and Audio from a camera can result in an odd timing issue in which frames might be dropped to maintain sync. We want to make sure the camera audio isn't causing the stutter. It may not be the cause in your case but we just want to make sure.

      Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson On the NDI Out side developers believe they are near a fix.

      On NDI HX input they have the following questions:

       

      • What else is going on in his document. (if possible, see if you can repro with just the NDI-HX input coming in, no other sources. e.g New Blank Document)?
      • What firmware is the PTZ Optics camera on (we've found firmware may impact the issue)
      • How have you set the dial for format/resolution on the camera itself (specific camera out settings used)?
      • What is the general CPUU usage of the system when seeing the issue (devs want to eliminate CPU use as part of the issue)?
      Like
  • CraigS said:
    What else is going on in his document. (if possible, see if you can repro with just the NDI-HX input coming in, no other sources. e.g New Blank Document)?

     There are 2 camera sources, a thunderbolt 3 Blackmagic mini recorder capture box, a USB Motu M.2 audio capture, and a local audio .MP3 file.  Output is usually NDI output and 1080p30 5mbps mainconcept RTMP.  I'm pretty sure I already tried a new document, but I'll try again when I get back in the space.

     

    CraigS said:
    What firmware is the PTZ Optics camera on (we've found firmware may impact the issue)

     I believe 6.3.20, but I will confirm.  Its either that or 6.3.18

     

    CraigS said:
    How have you set the dial for format/resolution on the camera itself (specific camera out settings used)?

     From memory dial is set for 1080p30, but will confirm.  My understanding is that config from the internal webpage overrides the dial

     

    CraigS said:
    What is the general CPUU usage of the system when seeing the issue (devs want to eliminate CPU use as part of the issue)?

     CPU is typically around 30% reported from wirecast system cpu measurement.

    Like
      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 mth ago
      • Reported - view

      Billy Davidson 
      Can you test with a New Document and Single NDI-HX source and see how its input looks? Test using 1080p30.
      Please update to the current camera firmware to test. We found this can be mission-critical.

      We'd also like screenshots of the camera settings (webpage) vs what's dialed in.
      Please confirm the computer given you mentioned M1 and Mainconcept which isn't supported on Apple Silicon. Also if you are on an M1 Mac please confirm Wirecast is not using Rosetta (as well as any other software Wirecast may be interfacing with).

      Like
  • CraigS I must have missed the announcement where mainconcept isn't supported on Apple silicon.  Is there a fix in the works?  I can change this machines encoder, but I have other installations where mainconcept is the only MacOS encoder that is acceptable.  They aren't on apple silicon yet, but it's only a matter of time.  The non NDI-HX portions of the stream look fine using Mainconcept on this M1 mac.  What happens that Mainconcept isn't supported? 

    Like
  • Billy Davidson said:
    I have other installations where mainconcept is the only MacOS encoder that is acceptable. 

    Our Mainconcept implementation works on Intel. We didn't implement it on Apple Silicon. Please explain which CDNs/Servers require it or why it's a necessity in your Apple Silicon Mac workflows.

    Like
      • Billy Davidson
      • Streaming Studio Manager
      • Billy_Davidson
      • 3 wk ago
      • Reported - view

      CraigS Then I may have confused my installations.  I'm still waiting to get back in this building to test some other stuff in this thread, I'll confirm then.

      We've had issues using Falcon captioning with apple h.264 and x.264 with words or sentences being scrambled on arrival to final CDN using IBM video, Youtube, and Vimeo.  Nvidia NVENC and Mainconcept both work correctly.

      Like
  • Billy Davidson said:
    I'll confirm then.

     👍

    Like
  • CraigS said:
    What firmware is the PTZ Optics camera on (we've found firmware may impact the issue)

     6.3.20, which is the latest available.

     

    CraigS said:
    What is the general CPUU usage of the system when seeing the issue (devs want to eliminate CPU use as part of the issue)?

     Seeing it with CPU as low as 15% as reported by Wirecast.

     

    CraigS said:
    What else is going on in his document. (if possible, see if you can repro with just the NDI-HX input coming in, no other sources. e.g New Blank Document)?

     New document, only one NDI-HX Camera, issue is present.

     

    CraigS said:
    How have you set the dial for format/resolution on the camera itself (specific camera out settings used)?

    Dial was set to 0, which is 1080p60.  Tried putting it on 6, for 1080p30, issue remains.

    In the internal web setup page, camera is set to 60hz, High profile, NDI preset High.

    First stream settings: H264, 1080, 12288 kbps, 30 fps, iframe interval 60, CBR, fluctuate level 1, slice split enable :Off, split mode fixed blocks, slice size 68

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