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Audio Lag

Is there any way to fix the awful audio lag? Currently running Wirecast 13.1.2 and users are joining Rendezvous via Google Chrome. Internet connection/bandwith not the issue from what I can tell 

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    • Greg Kuhnert
    • wirecast.community
    • Greg_Kuhnert
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Bobby Clinkert said:
    Is there any way to fix the awful audio lag? Currently running Wirecast 13.1.2 and users are joining Rendezvous via Google Chrome. Internet connection/bandwith not the issue from what I can tell 

    Hi Bobby Clinkert

    I have a gut feeling that audio lag is related to internet/connection issues... I've seen friends of mine start with a perfect stream, but after a glitch - its out of sync. I cant prove it, but that's what it feels like. I dont have my own data to confirm this however.

    I'd suggest looking at something like ping plotter as a tool to monitor internet during broadcast, and see if there are problems at times when lag is introduced.

    Regards

    Greg Kuhnert

    Like 1
  • Hi Greg, 

    Thanks for taking the time to reply. All of our internet is hard-wired with 1GB download and 60mb Upload. It seems we lose a frame at some point during the stream. Could that be it? It's very perplexing and frustrating :( 

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Bobby Clinkert The guests internet bandwidth is also a factor. Keep in mind they are not only sending their own camera but also receiving the other guests and the host.

    Are you seeing this with all guests or only certain guests?
    If the latter, what webcam and audio, what browser (include version) and where are they located?
    Do you see a "P" next to any of the guests in your Rendezvous Dashboard?
    We see some users experiencing this but not others so we're looking for a pattern.

    Like
  • I've had similar issues. Have you tried encoding to different bitrates? I weirdly found that the drift would happen at 2.5 Mbps but not 4 Mbps. I ended up just going HDMI out and encoding on a TeraDek. 

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view

    Joey Daoud Wirecast's encoder shouldn't impact Rendezvous. Wirecast itself had sync issues that we do need to troubleshoot if they're still occurring in 13.1.2 and 13.1.3

    Bobby Clinkert  Is this a Rendezvous issue? Waiting for a postback.

    Like
  • We have had a very strange revelation that poor lag is entirely down the remote participant's computer, one of our test guests joined on a mid-spec dell PC, from an average home fibre internet, their audio latency was in the region of 4 to 8 seconds, the same guest switched to a high spec i7 PC and instantly their lag was reduced to 0 and were real-time, same internet nothing clever.  The dell was unstable, unable to run any other tasks in the background with the rendezvous session taking over 100% of system resources.  So large multiway calls, really need high spec machines on the guest end.

    Telestream could look to implement a google/zoom style approach, for still smaller numbers of guests, but utilising a webrtc server set-up, sacrificing some of the "realtime" of rendezvous for a better guest experience when having a one to many call through a server, rather than simultaneous point to point calls, which leads to the poor guest experience.  

    Like 1
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    PAUL MILLARD said:
    Telestream could look to implement a google/zoom style approach,

     Please explain.

     

    PAUL MILLARD said:
    sacrificing some of the "realtime" of rendezvous for a better guest experience

     Realtime is key for guest participation in the live stream I'd think.

    Keep in mind Wirecast does work well with Zoom, Skype, etc. so one can certainly go that route now. 

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  • rendezvous is good because it natively comes into wirecast as inputs, which makes it better than using zoom/skype etc.

    the peer to peer nature of larger calls uses a lot of client (guest) system resources and bandwidth, which if a "server" based approach was used each client would only have one two-way call to a server rather than have to manage up to 8 two-way calls between browsers.  this would come at a potential trade-off in latency, but I have seen rendezvous so latent that flowing conversation is not possible because of this, as I said in one of our live sessions and tests a guest was 8 to 10 seconds behind the other users.

    this is not an approach that would suit all situations, but would be good for when you need to have a number of guests who all need to interact, before going live.

    vmix implementation of their vmix call is very good, but that is effectively handled as 8 individual calls from studio to each guest, so the guests can't see or hear each other until they are all on the live program bus, but some of the controls they have implemented are very good,  eg ability to remotely control clients bandwidth, control the bandwidth of the return video feed, separate return feeds (easy because they are separate calls)

    the advantage of using the native call system within the mixer is they require less hardware to bring the callers into the system.  we have achieved this with 8 laptops pinned in zoom and 8 NDI feeds in, skype NDI works great, apart from when the NDI stream decides to dynamically adjust itself, changing the window size live on the program bus.  if wirecast could capture and fix that then skype is probably the answer!! 
     

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    • Matthew Potter
    • Creative Technologist & Problem
    • Matthew_Potter
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    PAUL MILLARD said:
    if wirecast could capture and fix that then skype is probably the answer!! 

    Couldn't agree more! The only variant there is a warning that Skype mixes the audio of external guests into each NDI feed but as long as you, the controller, know and plan for that, it is easy to manage. Truly, the transform / scaling break that happens in Wirecast is LITERALLY a deal breaker for myself and several others who I've spoken with. We're all watching closely, but for a several year old bug that was reported to not see any progress, we've all but moved on to other systems and building out workflows that are consistently reliable. I'd love to come back, but not until this specific bug fix is in that I would EVERY use this in production.

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    PAUL MILLARD said:
    that is effectively handled as 8 individual calls from studio to each guest, so the guests can't see or hear each other until they are all on the live program bus,

     Obviously Wirecast developers have a different approach.
    Which would mean thinking of improvements relative to the way Wirecast is handling things. 

    PAUL MILLARD said:
    skype NDI works great, apart from when the NDI stream decides to dynamically adjust itself, changing the window size live on the program bus.

     Something we are also working on.

    Like
  • Could you please explain why there is no option to adjust the delay on the audio on different feeds coming in from Rendevous. The only reason I chose this platform was because of the Rendevous function. I wanted to be able to have 7 guests able to talk. But the syncing is impossible and in reality, makes this function not useable. Absolutely nowhere do you offer any suggestions or help with this. All I am asking is that the feed into the live bit can actually have delay. Why is it that all other audio sources have it, but this, possibly the most important function of your system for me, does not allow this. I feel a bit robbed

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Darrell Martin said:
    Could you please explain why there is no option to adjust the delay on the audio on different feeds coming in from Rendevous.

     There shouldn't be much difference between callers. They should all be able to communicate in near real-time with very low latency.

    Like
    • CraigS There is a real lag, sometimes of .5 seconds - 1 second. I am using the callers in shots and audience members are complaiing each week of the back audio sync. I never see this happening on zoom chats. I do not understand what is wrong. It is making my shows look very amateur

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      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Darrell Martin Individual guest's video and audio out of sync? Offset or drifting?
      Or do you mean delay between one guest talking and another responding? You mention "syncing" and given the variations, it would be hard to have different guests "in sync" with each other.

      Like
  • I really do nit see why you are so confused. 

    Every feed that I have I am able to alter the audio delay. But, the feeds from Rendevous do not allow this.

    SO, everybody that is in Rendevous, there mouths are moving at a different time to the sounds coming out. 

    Or, if someone has a clapper board, when they clap the board, the sound is coming through before the image.

    so, my question is, if you have set up the ability to delay sounds on every other source, why have you not done so for Rendevous.

    Basically, I chose your system because it allowed me to have a number of guests at a time speaking live. That cost me £1000. I then relasied that my MAC was not up to it, so I bought a new one (£2400). It has an 8 core i9 processor with 40GB. I have also bought an Xkeys controller.

    So, in all I have spent a lot to accomodate yoursystem. But the functionality that forst attracted me to it, and which you sell it on, does not operate correctly. 

    I have searched and search, I have just downloaded a beta 13.2 version. But still, there is no ability to delay the audio feed from the different people in rendevous.

    I really hope you are following this, because it really is pretty simple

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Darrell Martin said:
    Every feed that I have I am able to alter the audio delay. But, the feeds from Rendevous do not allow this.
    SO, everybody that is in Rendevous, there mouths are moving at a different time to the sounds coming out. 

     An issue like that should be resolved on our back end. Video and audio from each guest should be in sync.  That's where this issue will likely be addressed. You can certainly make the feature request but you should explain why that would be important if we improve the sync issues from guests.

     

    The sync offset function's intent is to adjust sync when video and audio sources travel along different signal paths.

    Like
  • Hello

    I quote you 'Video and audio from each guest should be in sync'

    I reply... I know that, but they are not. This is what i am enquiring about. 

    And I find it a bit odd that you say 'you should explain why that would be important if we improve the sync issues from guests.'

    Surely, if someone is giving a presentation or similar it would be really quite nice if their mouth matches the sound coming out of the screen.

    I have spoken to a number of people that have just given up using Rendevous because it offers problem after problem.

     

    I really do feel like i have been robbed a bit here.

    I have paid for the top end software of yours, in thr hope of having 7 people come in. But, when I have 4 or more the whole thing seems to break down, and the feed from different people are affected.

    These issues do not happen on Zoom or other platforms. So, I would say that your system is not actually doing what you say it can. 

    Like
    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Darrell Martin said:
    I reply... I know that, but they are not. This is what i am enquiring about. 

     That would be an issue we need to fix. The purpose of the offset is for sources coming from different paths.

    Darrell Martin said:
    These issues do not happen on Zoom or other platforms

     They aren't using WebRTC and they also don't have an offset. An offset is not the solution. We need to fix the sync issue.

    Like
  • So, after all this backward and forward, you are now accepting that there is a sync issue with one of the major selling points for the upgrade to the top end system you have?

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  • Also... I am not a techie... I have no idea what 'WebRTC' is. I do not feel that Is hould have yo know. What I do know, is that you have sold me a system which does not do what it purports to do. At present i am livestreaming comedy shows in the UK and I am booking some of the leading British comedians. I am selling tickets on their names. But, when I have 4 or more people in Rendevous, the whole thing seems to break down and I cannot rely on it. This is a major fault, and not something that you should just brush off by saying 'it is something we should fix' and expect your customers to be satisfied with some technical jargon. If it was a car you were selling me and I had an issue with your upgraded breaking system, you would not expect to get away with such comments.

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      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 2 yrs ago
      • Reported - view

      Darrell Martin In our investigation (WIRE-17255)  it's involving some things that require us to get information from the user because most don't experience this.

      Hold down the Shift key and open Wirecast Preferences and go to Debug and enable Rendezvous Logging

      Have a guest that you are seeing this issue with call-in Rendezvous and talk to them until the drift becomes obvious. Please do ask them what their Camera and Mic source is. You can then stop the call. 

      Go to Wirecast Help Send Support Information and tick Create support ticket... Briefly mention that it's a Rendezvous sync issue. Then select the lower right Send Report button.
        

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    • CraigS 

      Hello... I cna try,, ,but it only really seem to happen when I load up the people and we are live with it. But it did hsappen in a practice set up last week and we were trying to use the delay on the audio mix, but realised thast didn't work

       

      I'll give it a go tomoorrow (it is 9.15pm here at momnet)

       

      Thanks for this

       

      DArrel

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    • CraigSModerator
    • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
    • CraigS
    • 2 yrs ago
    • Reported - view
    Darrell Martin said:
    you are now accepting that there is a sync issue

     Sorry, I don't understand your point. Guests can have sync issues. That's entirely different than sync between separate sources. The latter requires an offset. The former requires work on our end. It only affects some guests so we are investigating that. 

    Darrell Martin said:
    If it was a car you were selling me and I had an issue

     If most of the cars worked without issue but some do, like any manufacturer work to fix the issue some people are having (and many others aren't). 

    We are working on fixing the issue experienced by some. Rendezvous involves a backend server so the issue involves more than Wirecast, the program, but a server. Since it only happens for some guests and not others we have to make sure that a "fix" for some doesn't "break" for others. It's not all or nothing so it does involve some investigation. Sorry this is a problem but we are addressing it. 

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  • Disappointing there is no solution at the end of this thread. 

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      • CraigSModerator
      • Telestream Desktop Forum Moderator
      • CraigS
      • 1 yr ago
      • Reported - view

      Randy Purcell We're not getting reports of this in Wirecast 14.3.4. No one has posted to this thread in over a year as several updates have been released.

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