Titler Live Removing Titles
Anyone else experiencing this one?
I've added a few titles, run through the scenes and everything is fine.
At some point, I go back to the scene and there's no title appearing. I click the asset and launch Titler Live and the lower 3rd is no longer assigned inside of Titler Live. I have to re-add the title.
Mac Catalina 10.15.6 (whatever the latest is)
WC 13.2 (whatever the latest is)
TL4 (whatever the latest is)
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Peter Schwinge said:
Mac Catalina 10.15.6 (whatever the latest is)There's public release 10.15.5. and there's a public beta 10.15.6.
You need to check this because it's significant.Peter Schwinge said:
WC 13.2 (whatever the latest is)There's public release 13.1.3 and there's a public beta 13.2
You need to check this because it's significant.
Please check the versions and confirm because the issue may very well be related to the versions involved. -
Ahh, yes.
10.15.5 public
13.2 Beta
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Moved to Beta forum as Beta issues should be in that forum.
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See similar Titler Live and beta issues
https://telestreamforum.forumbee.com/t/g9hx5s2/adding-shot-titler-live-no-longer-visible
andhttps://telestreamforum.forumbee.com/t/h7hxrvt/bug-with-titler-going-live-unintentionally
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Peter Schwinge Do you have an Elgato Streamdeck attached even if not being used?
Was the document created in 13.2 Beta or an earlier version of Wirecast (which version?).
Are you using keyboard shortcuts or the mouse for transitions? -
Yes to the Streamdeck which I use all the time. Created on 13.2 Beta.
I use the streamdeck or press space bar for transitions.
It's not that they're not showing up when I press live...it's that after a few times they completely disappear from Titler Live and I have to launch Titler Live and re-insert the lower 3rd into it.
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CraigS Thanks for this. I missed it on my last viewing....I've done a bunch of housecleaning and purging of cache and preferences and now trying to stress test it again.
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Ah man...I almost had video proof for ya.
I did a purge of both WC and TL prefs and cache and tried to recreate the problem while screen recording - I was even giving a nice commentary for you. Though all seemed to be working well for quite some time so I stopped.
Then, I saved a new version of the file and tested out bringing in a friend through Skype NDI and was showing him all cool titles and overlays....everything was fine. Set his scenes and let him go.
Then, I wanted to test some recording to disk...Hit record (now, I don't know when the problem actually happened because you know how you can be doing a bunch of things and not looking directly at something) upon recording I went to click a title, and like in the past, they were not showing up...then something even more strange occurred this time...
I clicked my source to launch Titler Live and absolutely nothing was in there except for about 15 playlists all labeled 01. See attachments titler 01 and 02.
So, I went to quit and not save the file...which WC then hung and I had to force quit.
Reopened the file and still was broken.
So, I opened up my previous version just to see if the Titles were still in there, and yes, they were...see 03 - 05. So, something is happening that isn't quite right.
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Peter Schwinge said:
I clicked my source to launch Titler Live and absolutely nothing was in there except for about 15 playlists all labeled 01. See attachments titler 01 and 02.Is it possible that Titler Live itself is having an issue?
Titler Live 4 current version 4.0.190919 -
CraigS Totally possible. But, when I run Titler Live as a standalone app and NDI it to Wirecast I don't have the problem. But, that's not how I want to run it.
I posted in here because maybe someone else may have had a similar issue plus, the NewBlue forum is pretty much dead
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Peter Schwinge said:
when I run Titler Live as a standalone app and NDI it to Wirecast I don't have the problem.So Titler Live NDI to Wirecast works?
The odd thing is that you show Titler Live having an issue when working directly. I'm not sure how Wirecast could cause that.
Peter Schwinge said:
the NewBlue forum is pretty much deadYou may need to contact them directly through their form
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CraigS
Thanks for the link.
Yes, it works correctly through NDI as a standalone app. No issues there. I only have the issue when I add it through Wirecast. That's why I asked in this forum as well in case anyone else had a similar issues. I'm not saying it's WC directly, but it only happens inside Wirecast - could be a number of things.
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Peter Schwinge Can you test with Wirecast's own built-in titles to see if the same issue exists. It's possible it's a more generic "title" problem not specific to Titler Live.
We've had an issue where title text would disappear when opening a Wirecast document so I want to see if maybe this is that issue. -
CraigS I'll do a stress test tomorrow. I haven't come across the issue of generic title's disappearing but, I have had the system freeze on numerous occasions just by moving the text or editing the size -- I actually have a ticket open about it because it was getting so bad.
I'll let you know if I come across anything with the titles.
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Peter Schwinge said:
At some point, I go back to the scene and there's no title appearing. I click the asset and launch Titler Live and the lower 3rd is no longer assigned inside of Titler Live. I have to re-add the title.This is why the engineers will want to see a screen recording. Seeing the outcome (screenshots) doesn't show exactly what you were doing, what the program was doing, then the titles disappeared. Something not obvious to you may be very obvious to the engineers.
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CraigS I was doing a recording and everything was working fine - about a half hour of recording...naturally, it was when I stopped recording is when it crashed :)
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Peter Schwinge You can use our ScreenFlow product. It's fully functional in trial mode (just watermarked exports) and has a loop record function so it'll save the last "whatever" minutes you set it to. This way you can keep it running until the crash and just record the last few minutes without filling up your drive.
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CraigS Thanks Craig...and guess what? I finally caught it on video.
Here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdbpwepytwcpyjb/Titler%20Crash_c.mp4?dl=0
The file is a brand new file - I started recording just after I put in the few elements. For the most part, it's me setting up layouts.
Around 14:30 is where I begin adding Titler Live.
At 23:00 is where the titles disappear.
Note: I use the space bar or a button on my mouse that is mapped to the space bar.
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Peter Schwinge Thanks for doing that. I'll have the developers follow through your steps.
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CraigS Hey Craig, Have another recording and update for ya.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/upcpkuncya7vvsl/Freeze%20and%20Lost%20Titles.mp4?dl=0
- 3:10 I show my files and how the file size reduces after a crash happens and all the titler live files are removed.
- 4:30 I talk about my monitor setup and the eGPU and something that helped to clear up the Titler Live glitch and turning off Prefer GPU
- 7:35 a hang happens when I update my camera then the Titler Live files
I added my activity monitor to follow along this time if that helps at all and narration of what I did over the weekend to try and clear things up. I'll summarize below.
Also, going back to something you mentioned about adding regular text. I actually have an open ticket because WC would freeze or crash if I simply placed the text in it. Create a new document, add camera, add text (alter the text or move) and it would freeze.
This time I added text and after a while, it crashed - then I reverted back to an older file and started screen capture.
A few notes:
- After I get a freeze, the Titler Live sources disappear and purges the TL application. I then saved the WC as an updated version -- After I saved the files the WC doc went from 1.1MB to 104 KB (shown in video)
- Another issue I came across was I couldn't copy and paste an item…it just gives the alert sound — this happens only after WC freezes. When I restart, I can copy and paste again.
What I did over the weekend which seemed to help a little.
- I completely erased my Mac Mini and re-installed Catalina 10.15.5. Only installed exactly what I need for a streaming setup.
- Fixed a start-up issue where my computer would sometimes hang during boot-up by turning off FileVault and now I turn on my Razer x eGPU AFTER I log in.
- I unticked Prefer External GPU in the WC and TL 'get info'
This seemed to help - it didn't freeze or lose TL as often.
I did some stress tests where I would turn on virtual out and stream with titles and background movies and click through tons of scenes and it would run for an hour or so without any problem.
One time it froze and lost TL was when I hit a bunch of buttons by accident on my Stream Deck...I tried to recreate that by pressing every button in rapid succession and at the same time - I couldn't recreate the issue.
Overall, what I'm seeing is that it's random with no specific instance creating the hang.
Using any kind of text adds to the frequency of freezes (and most, while not all, of the time, is when the TL files get removed)
Apologies as this is a bit long and a bit all over the place, but I wanted to try to give you the most info I could.
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Peter Schwinge In your config. You're using an eGPU. Is it possible you can remove it entirely and reboot the computer? We don't officially support eGPU and Titler Live may also be dependent on the GPU so the combination might be exacerbating the issues. Lots of good details in that. Thanks for doing the recording.
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Peter Schwinge It would help if you could send me your support Information file (Help>Send Support Information>Save Report -- this will save a zipped file on your system. Attach that and send it to lynne[at]telestream.net. Thank you!
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Peter Schwinge, I have had this exact behavior quite a bit with Titler Live. It works fine......until it doesn't. Title disappears and I have to re-add it. However, in my case, after I do that, it often will work for a few minutes and then do the same thing.....only this time Titler Live will totally crash so that I can't re-add the title.
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alaskacameradude If you can document the details as well that would help us greatly.
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CraigS it is random which is part of what makes it so baffling. It might work for 5 minutes or for 30 minutes. Good thing is even after Titler Live crashes, Wirecast keeps working, I just lose my ability to add animated titles which is frustrating.
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alaskacameradude If Titler Live is crashing have you sent the crash log to NewBlueFX. It's possible that Titler Live is the issue in all this rather than Wirecast. We are investigating though. What appears random to the user may actually have an unseen cause. That's why we're asking for recordings. Since multiple people are experiencing it, gather the results from multiple users might point to the cause.
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alaskacameradude Same here. I originally posted in here and Craig's been helpful but I'm also going to let NewBlue know because it could be a number of issues.
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alaskacameradude HI Would you please email me your Support Information file (go to Help>send support information>save report... this will save a zipped file on your system. Please attach that and email it to me at lynne[at]telestream.net. thank you!
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lynn_elliott Hey Lynne, just sent it over to ya.
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CraigS Haven't sent it yet. I don't see report like WC, or, do you mean send the WC report to them as well?
Also, per your other post, I've been very busy so haven't had the chance to try anything without the eGPU yet. Hopefully, I'll be able to test it out this weekend and let you know.
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Peter Schwinge thanks got it!
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Peter Schwinge said:
I don't see report like WCSave Report and email it to Lynn.
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CraigS Yeah. Got that one. I wasn't sure if there was a separate one in Titler that I wasn't aware of.
Have a good weekend!
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Peter Schwinge That should get us everything we need.
Likewise. -
CraigS lynn_elliott
Good morning for when you get this.
Quick update. Had a freeze when overlaying a Movie file that had a transparent background. This wiped out any Titler Live stuff I had in the file.
I removed all the TL stuff and disconnected my eGPU. I was adding in some graphic overlays then clicked Add Text. Copied and pasted some dummy text, went to format it, and got another freeze and the Spinning Wheel of Death for about 3 minutes or so.
So, it's basically doing the same thing whether I have my eGPU connected or not.
Screenshot of the exact moment it froze. I just noticed my CPU reads 27% - Normally when I'm working on my files it sits between 7-11% - so there was some sort of spike at that moment.
Happy Monday!
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Peter Schwinge Oh and then this whole freezing when trying to resize an image started happening. Got the video for ya.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tqg21tws05vf21f/WC%20Freeze%20on%20Image%20resize.mp4?dl=0
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CraigS lynn_elliott
I have an interesting note to add...
Around 2 am I gave up on trying to do anything in WC Beta because even if I clicked on an image to resize it, it would freeze. This morning, I reset the Prefs and deleted the cache - which didn't help.
So, I said forget trying to accomplish anything with Beta and let's see if any of this happens in 13.1 and re-downloaded the installer.
I took one of the last working files that I was using in Beta and opened it up in 13.1 and added a bunch of text and resized images and camera shots -- everything seemed to work fine except one time I did get a slight freeze trying to resize text.
Here's the interesting part.
In 13.1 my internal GPU was getting slammed and my CPU was ranging between 25 - 42%
I opened the same file in Beta and the internal GPU was barely being touched and the CPU was floating around 9-12%
This wasn't recording or streaming, just doing work and playing some movie files.
Activity Monitor shots attached.
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Peter Schwinge Thanks for doing this testing. Interesting observation about CPU/GPU use.
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Hey CraigS and lynn_elliott ,
On a different note, after pushing through the hangs and crashes - I got my first taping done today with my new layout and guests. I went back to 13.1 for it.
Thought you might like to take a look: https://youtu.be/o-3QP45AzyE
My production flow is:
- Four co-hosts through Skype via NDI (individual feed -- NDI audio sums to one audio channel)
- I virtual cam the live video feed back to them through Skype so they can see the program with just my audio -- this requires Loopback to route the audio properly so there's no feedback and they don't hear themselves - also requires proper WC audio mapping.
- Record to disk. mp4 h.264 2.5mbps 128/48k
- Send audio/video out via HDMI through Blackmagic Intensity 4k card (housed in a Sonnet Echo Express III-R to a Dell G5 PC to record a backup (this will become the dedicated streaming computer) - my camera is captured through the same card.
- I'm doing all the transitions live using a Stream Deck XL (which there's a slight issue with it taking almost a minute to fully connect and lock to the Wirecast layers -- I posted in Elgato's Reddit about this) and a Corsair RGB Dark Core Mouse which I assign the buttons to the three different transitions (Mice with 8 buttons are awesome!).
I've given up on using Titler Live for now so I pre-made the Name Titles in Premiere and added them to overlay in a timed playlist. Topic Titles are just a static image and I edit the text in WC then I 'push' them on and off the screen on the top layer.
And just adding to something I noted before - 13.1 throttles up my CPU and GPU usage and I also noticed using x264 to record to disk would create video stutters even when only at 2500mpbs. Switching to h.264 cleared that up at 2500.
While I was running my GPU usage would fluctuate between 48-65% which is almost double what I was stress-testing using Beta with the same configuration.
Though, no crashes or hangs during the taping.
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Peter Schwinge Interesting for comparison with changes in the beta.
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Peter Schwinge The problem stems EXCLUSIVELY from your Elgato Stream Deck.... I am an installing in Boston Ma, and MULTIPLE clients had the same issue... The only work around is to PULL Titler Live into WC via NDI.... that's the only way to keep your Titles saved and safe....
I hurts, but that's the only work around.
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Audi L. Lynch A simple test would be using the mouse vs the Streamdeck. There's an SDK involved that gets Titler Live to interact with Wirecast. Of course, NDI avoids the SDK but that SDK is used whether one is using the Streamdeck or the mouse so that has to be tested.
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Audi L. Lynch
Thanks, I'll have to test that out at some point, but I do know that even before I had the Stream Deck, I would lose Titles from time to time. It was so long ago that I don't remember the specifics, I just dealt with it for the time being
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Peter Schwinge I use to have the same issue when I opened a project that I've duplicated, or saved as a different name, but kept the shots/layers and titles. I recognized that the Elgato Stream Deck came into the mix last Sunday before church and it was complete flames. SDK or not, and then a client confirmed the same flammable situation. As a stand alone coming into WC is the best and MOST stable bet.... sadly... NOT my Elgato is a hit or miss recognizing Titler. Sigh, the joys of technology. JUST WORK!!!
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Audi L. Lynch
Oh the Joys, yes - don't forget that Elgato has an issue assigning one Title to their NewBlue integration, then shuts out any changes after, therefore eliminating any possible use of Stream Deck and Titler Live
The response from support was, yeah, it's probably the other company...while the other company said, yeah, we know about it, not sure when it'll be fixed
that was a month ago
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Peter Schwinge I've noticed the same thing with Titler Live and the Stream Deck... it's so frustrating because... I started to use TL as a standalone to send to WC via NDI.... but then THAT happened....
I just needed everything to talk nicely... If you find a solution PLEASE let me know! My only sense of peace is know.... I'm not the only experiencing this! Thanks Peter!
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Happy Friday, CraigS ,
I made another video for ya! https://www.dropbox.com/s/j1259q94j62xyoq/13%20vs%20Beta%202%20hang.mp4?dl=0
During the timeframe of this conversation, there was a beta 2 release which I just noticed...I downloaded it to see if that would fix the hanging problem when I try to move an object.
Alas, no joy.
I disconnected everything from my Mac Mini (no cams, chassis, eGPU, streamdeck, et al.) Only things connected are a Monitor through Thunderbolt (Corsair keyboard and mouse - wirelessly connected to the monitor USB ports) Ext HD USB to Mac.
Using the same file, I opened it up on 13.1 and moved things around (first 2 minutes), then opened it on the July Beta build - and it hangs as soon as I clicked the image to move it.
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Peter Schwinge I'm a bit confused as to which issue you're referring to. This thread is about Titler Live titles disappearing. You seem to be showing a hang. If this is an issue you previously reported, if it's not listed as fixed in the beta update (each update lists the issues that were fixed) it means we're still working on it.
Please post on the thread with this issue if it's different than the disappearing Titler Live shot. -
CraigS
Within this topic, I have always discussed the hang. When WC would hang, that is when the Titles would disappear.
I noticed I was still getting the hang with the July Beta release so I added it in here...I've given up on Titler Live for the moment.
I could start a new thread if that helps since it's kinda two issues in one thread - though the hang is what would trigger the other issue.
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Peter Schwinge If the hang is related to the Titler Live title disappearing, we're still working on it. When the next beta is released we will list the issues we've fixed. If it's not there we can check on the status update.
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CraigS
Gotcha,
Just thought it might have helped showing the hang.
Now I just need Stream Deck to work properly --- but that's already in another thread :). Have a good weekend!
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Peter Schwinge Any solutions in that thread? I need to locate that and get HELP!
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Audi L. Lynch They're still working on it. See Craig's response 2 posts up.
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Another beta is on the way. Soon of course.
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CraigS I have the same issue with Titler Live....
It would work for a undetermined amount of time during a broadcast and then it will disappear.
I have the latest version of Titler Live & Catalina.
I thought my issue was connected to my stream deck because that’s when I noticed it first started happening. I stopped using the stream deck and Titler still crashed.
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Mr. Thompson Test our new public beta 14.0.
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Our Internal Reference for this issue.
WIRE-17679-
CraigS Is there any progress on this?
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Greg Kuhnert We are trying to gather additional information including talking to NewBlueFX about this.
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CraigS said:
We are trying to gather additional information including talking to NewBlueFX about this.It would be good to get a timeline, because right now - 14.x is un-usable with Titler Live over NDI. Its just my guess, but what I think is happening is that Titler uses tally indicators in the NDI connection to fire titles. I am guessing that the way Wirecast is changing / updating tally indicators has changed. As a workaround, it would be good if we can totally disable tally indication on NDI inputs as a configuration option. This would help stabilise the NewBlueFX over NDI inputs once and for all.
GK
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Greg Kuhnert Timeline may depend on NewBlueFX's response. It is their app and their SDK so they control those.
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